Life Lessons from a Cancer and a Cardiac Arrest Survivor

The transcription is, for the most part, AI-transcribed and is currently 85% accurate. We are still weeding out some minor errors.

The IPS Academy
Before we go on to the interview, have you already taken a look at The IPS Academy? The IPS Academy provides online courses from some of the best instructors out there on mental health, personal development, lifestyle, nutrition, mindfulness improving your life quality, etc. Each course we offer has been made in collaboration with an instruct who has also been a guest here on The IPS podcast. Have a look to see if there's a course to your liking. Read the full course descriptions and check out the thousands of positive reviews from students who have taken the course by going to TheIPSProject.com/academy. Or check the description of this episode to find the link. With that, let's dig into the interview.

Martin Inderbitzin
Okay, so the first thing I would say, like, hearing bad news is bad. I would not recommend to try, let's say, a positive psychology approach of like, oh, yeah, I can see now the positive in it. Sometimes you get bad news and it's just like, I mean, I don't know what word I can use on this podcast, but it's just bad. And that's okay. It means that you care about living. And I think it's okay to be upset and it's okay to be sad, and it's okay that's what I learned, that that I I have to live through all these emotions.

Jellis Vaes
This is episode 034 with Dr. Martin Inderbitzin. Welcome, everyone, to another episode, another journey here on The IPS podcast. I am Jellis Vaes , your host and the founder of The IPS Project, the educational platform on life. Here on the podcast, I chat with people from all walks of life to draw out life lessons that you can use to improve your quality of life. Now, in this episode, I had the pleasure of welcoming a guest who has been on the show twice before, a guest about whom I received many positive comments each time he was on the show, and, well, a guest I myself love talking to. Who is this guest? Well, it's none other than Dr. Martin Inderbitzin, a pancreatic cancer survivor, a neuroscientist, and a triathlete. Now, here's a slightly more extended intro about Martin and about his episodes, and I will explain why. In 2000, just after receiving his PhD in neuroscience, martin got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, an event that, well, as you can imagine, completely turned his life upside down and sent him on a roller coaster journey with many battles to be fought along the way. Because of this experience, Martin founded My Survival Story, a story platform to inspire other cancer patients by sharing the stories of other survivors.

If you want to hear the in depth story of Martin's cancer journey, as well as how he became a triathlete because he signed up for a triathlon when he was actually still going. Well, still undergoing chemo, then check. Out the first interview he did on The IPS podcast, which was episode eleven, and you can find it linked up in the description of this episode. Now, Martin is also the founder of the Mindset Academy, an academy that offers online courses where he combines his personal experience of battling cancer and his understanding of neuroscience to help you change your mindset. In episode 26, the second time he appeared on The IPS podcast, we talked a lot about mindset, pain and suffering. In that interview, Martin shared also multiple practices he used during his cancer journey, as well as techniques from neuroscience that he also teaches in one of his courses. You can also find that episode linked up in the description of this episode. Now, this episode and here is why the intro will be a bit more is a bit more extended, not alone to just give you a background about Martin, but also this interview will be slightly a bit different than the usual interviews I do, as I too will join the interview and participate much more in the conversation.

If you wonder why, well, it's because I too have a story to tell about dealing with a chronic, life threatening illness. For more than 24 years, I've been dealing with a chronic heart disease that led to a cardiac arrest two years ago, an event that also, as you probably can imagine, turned my life just upside down. Now, the questions that have been created for this interview are questions about life and debts, and these are topics everyone will face in some form at some point in their lives. However, Martin and I just have what we both already had years to ponder these questions of life and death. With that, we have also had our fair share of insights and takeaways that you can use to improve your life and find your own answers and truths on the topics of life and death. As always, you can find any resources mentioned in this episode in the Show Notes, which can be found in the description of this episode. Martin also recently wrote his first book titled Dare to Live, a collection of condensed insights from his last decade of fighting for his life. Each chapter is filled with his thoughts and practical actions, combining his understanding of neuroscience and his personal experience of battling chronic cancer and surviving pancreatic cancer. The book to can be found in the show notes of this episode. Now, if you can't find them there, you can simply go to TheIPSProject.com/podcast and search for Martin. Having said all that, I sincerely hope you will find many lessons, insights and truths about the topic of life and death in this episode with me and Dr. Martin Inderbitzin. Please enjoy.

Jellis Vaes
Martin, a warm welcome to The IPS podcast. It's so good to welcome you once again.

Thank you. Thanks for having me again. It's a pleasure.

Jellis Vaes
So you've been on the podcast now two times, and the first time was in episodes eleven and the second time was in episode 26, which, for everyone listening, I will also put in the show notes. Each time I received actually countless of positive comments from people telling me how much they actually learned from you and insights that they got. And I personally also each time walked away with so many lessons, actually. So I'm always very happy to have you on the show again.

Thanks so much. I mean, hearing that is just such a beautiful thing that just fills me with gratitude. When you do something or share something or share your story and then somebody else can see something in it or take away something, that's just wonderful, I think.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah. So the last time that we actually spoke was in 2021, so like two years ago. And I know that a lot has changed for you, for me as well. If people just look at us right now, seeing us sitting here talking to each other, we both look pretty normal. You look pretty healthy, I look pretty healthy. Like nothing has ever happened to us, right? But then if you know what you have went through, if people have listened to episode eleven where we dig a lot more into the story of cancer and everything that you had to go through and battles with, but if people just look at us now, you would not say any battles that we fought or went through. And since it's been such a long time, I actually wanted to start by asking if you're okay with just giving in sort of a nutshell, maybe the start of your journey, but also a most recent update of what has happened from 2021 up until now for people to know some of those battles that you've gone through. So they will also see, once we get into the questions, where you are coming from. Where the lessons that you've learned and the insights that you've gotten, that they're not just that they're actually coming from years of experience, in a way.

Sure, I can try. I mean, I'm not sure if I remember exactly where we left 2021, if I'm honest. Like, I remember it as a good talk and very deep. But what I want to pick up, what you said, is it's true that when you look at people like us or other people out there, then on the surface, or I like to say on the front story it all looks so glossy, or it looks very healthy and no struggle. And then there is the backstory. And the backstory I think, is often more interesting than the front story. The front story is maybe the one you share on Facebook and then the backstory is maybe the one you share on a podcast. I don't know. It could be. I don't know how it's for you, but it's for me, maybe tricky to summarize the steps I went through because in the past years I had so many ups and downs in both directions of amazing things that happened in my life that I could never have dreamt of doing or achieving. And then dramatic stuff that I was like, oh, asking myself if I can actually make it or not.

So it's really this bipolar timeline going up and down and it's probably hard to pick up one concrete milestone. What I would take with me is that when you're on the top, you can be sure it will not always be there when you're on the bottom, the same. So this is something that I start memorizing or remembering, like when I have my low points, but also when I have my high points, like, hey, it's this kind of development and it helps me actually to go through the stuff. Yes.

Jellis Vaes
So maybe because you mentioned like, the ups and the downs, maybe can you from maybe two, three years ago, what were some of the ups and downs? And that could be sort of the most recent update for people to hear what has happened in your life.

Sure. I would say one of the biggest ups in the past years is that the story and my cancer journey made me really decide what I want to do with my time and what I want to do professionally and how I want to spend my time and changing my relationship to time and asking myself, is this meaningful to me or do I want to do something else? And somehow without having a plan, but more with I like to say with a design thinking approach, like trying stuff out prototyping and see what works and what doesn't work. Ending up in a position where I can do what I'm doing today. Giving talks, giving workshops, helping people in one way or the other. It's the most beautiful thing that happened in the past years. And this would not have been possible without going through I had to go through with cancer. Now, on the downside, I would say it is really something that does not only affect your emotions, but also your relationships.

Jellis Vaes
Sure.

So I had a lot of ups and downs there, and I'm now not together anymore with Katrina, like the last time we have talked with, and we are totally in good terms, actually, we had a coffee yesterday, which was really fun. But it shows that a journey like this is not just a medical or emotional struggle, but also for you when you're in a relationship or somebody watching you or walking next to you, it's a huge burden. Chuggling all these balls is really something that is not easy.

Jellis Vaes
So, yeah, actually this was a question that I not yet in the interview sort of planned, you could say. But I am curious now because you mentioned that your relationship ended because of this chronic disease that you're struggling with. Right. Or that you have.

I'm not sure if it was the chronic disease. I think relationships, they come together and they break because of different reasons. But what I think is that a chronic disease is like an amplification of what is already in the relationship. And so it accelerates what is going on. And I don't want to blame, like, my cancer or my disease for a relationship to go apart, but it puts you and your relationship in a different context, in a special box or in an environment that you have to go through. And it can either make you, like, going really together or it can really break you apart. And the cause is in this way, not directly the illness, but it's just accelerating it. And I and she and we both we learned a lot out of it. So, I mean, today we are much stronger, not in an American way, you know, not like I have to think positive, but we grew out of that and we are friends and we understood that it's not the way we had to go and keep going next to each other. And that's again, like when you're asking the ups and downs, it's the beautiful thing again, that you can learn from these kind of life experiences.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah, but it is for I mean, it's definitely emotional, like you said, it's an emotional rollercoaster, not just for you, but also for the people around us. Right. And this is something that I now myself in the last, well, two years since I had my cardiac arrest. And I will also maybe give a little update well, a little update for people to know where I'm coming from, because some of the questions that I have, I'm very curious about to know your answer on. But some of them I also want to give my opinion on and I also want to therefore share a little bit of where I'm coming from with my opinions. But I definitely also since my cardiac arrest, my relationship also had many, many ups and downs because it's upsetting not for me, but for my girlfriend, too, in a lot of ways. Right. It creates an uncertainty that it's not always easy to live with.

Yeah, I think the uncertainty is one factor in the equation and she has to watch it from outside. But I think what's also tricky is that the illness puts one of the two of you into the patient seat. I mean, patient, in whatever sense you want to call it, but in the seat that needs care or maybe you have to be careful with, which puts the other person in the caregiver's seat. And so that is an imbalance or an asymmetry. And so what happens if the person who suddenly is like, have I mean, it's not that I, as a patient say like, hey, you have to care for me all the time, but it just is automatically because you love each other. So what happens now if the caregiver at one point also needs care or says, hey, look, it's now too much, or now we have to switch roles. And I think that's the tricky change of dynamics that you're not prepared for, because most of the relationships, they come together before you enter such a drama, and then the drama comes in, and suddenly it changes the dynamic. I don't know how it was for you guys, but we definitely could observe that dynamic change over the years.

Yeah.

Jellis Vaes
It's still a learning process for both of us, but I'm trying to not be just little normal, live in the end, but it's just more the uncertainty. I think, for my girlfriend, that is the hardest thing.

That, like, the fear of it could come back any moment. Is that the case in your situation, or how is that like?

Jellis Vaes
I'm actually going to close my window because I forgot to close it.

Yeah, sure.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah. So, well, let me otherwise just jump into maybe a little bit about my story, in a nutshell, of the chronic disease that I kind of struggle with. So when I was six years old, you have, like, these school health check ins where they just like or the medical checks that they do at school, or at least what we have in Belgium. And the doctor was, like, listening to my heart, and she just asked me, like, are you nervous? I was like, not really. And then she just asked me a whole bunch of questions, like, are you often nervous? Do you often feel nervous? Or do you often feel, like, a fast heartbeat or something? And I had no clue what she was talking about. And a week later, I was sent to the hospital to do an ECG and an echo, and immediately was like, yeah, you got a heart arrhythmia, like an irregular heartbeat. So I have way too many heartbeats. You have a normal heart rhythm, which is like, up in an arrest, and mine is just constantly going up. And I was placed on medication, which I really did not respond good to.

I always broke down in episodes of dizziness and being completely sweaty every day. So they placed me of it, but they just let me do, every year a check in at the hospital, which that's, okay. And then they suggested, like, okay, we got to do something about this because this could turn into some real problems. Do you know what an Ablation is?

Yes, they burn out when they burn out some tissue with microwaves.

Jellis Vaes
Exactly. Yeah. So they go with a theater, I think it's called, in English to your heart. And like you said, then they burn the because this is an electrical problem with your heart. Right. The irregular heartbeat. So they try to look for the spot where it's coming from, and they burn it away. But in my case, it didn't work. Then they tried it again the next day. It didn't work again. And then years passed, and then they said, like, okay, we really have to do something again. So I think after like eight years, they tried it again and then again it failed. The reason why it failed was because when I was on the surgery table and they wanted to burn it away, the irregular heartbeats, they were gone, so they disappeared. So it was really weird because when I sport, for example, they also disappear. It's really weird, actually. And that kind of leads us up to 2021, when I was like 28, that I had a cardiac arrest. And it is because of my heart disease. A cardiac arrest is also an electrical problem. Right. A heart attack. People confuse it all the time.

A heart attack is a problem more with the blood flow, but you're still conscious. Cardiac arrest, you're just dead. You fall dead. And if there's no one to save you, then you can't do anything.

Because the electrical signal that is just like making the impulse is not working properly anymore. And so the heart just stops.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah.

That's crazy.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah. And then last year I had another ablation. And this time, because they did it, only I wasn't like, how do you call it? Under fullest anesthesia. There was only like partly and it was normally to be like a two hour surgery, but it ended up being like a five hour surgery. But they found the place and they burned because the last times they actually didn't do that because they couldn't find it. And they said, yeah, it's gone. And I was like I actually started crying because this was like just I just couldn't believe it, actually, that it was like, okay, this is like over now. But then in the night, it actually returned again. But this year there's another surgery scheduled and they basically said, like, okay, we just got to burn deeper. Because they don't burn all the way too deeply. Right. They try to reduce.

It's a risky yeah, exactly.

Jellis Vaes
Right. So they just have to go a bit deeper. But they might have found the spot where it's coming from. But well, let's see. Right? Because they were also on the surgery table saying, like, it looks also like it's coming from the outside and not from inside. So it might turn up into a whole different surgery, which is more like an open heart surgery to fix this. But I'm trying to not think about that yet and focus more on just this right now. But that's a little bit of in a nutshell, like me dealing with this chronic disease and with debt and just having a lot of thoughts and trying to live with it. Learned a lot from this about living life. But it's also not been easy because didn't you went through a surgery like last year or two years ago?

Last year? Yes, last year I was thinking, which year do we have? Yes. Yeah. After my sailing, I had a big surgery.

Jellis Vaes
Why?

Because my cancer always comes back in the liver. Yeah. That was the spot that we spotted it so far. Yes. So initially it was in the pancreas, but since then it came back like six, seven, eight times in the liver. And so that's where we always have surgery.

Jellis Vaes
Wow.

It's interesting because it comes back, but very small spots and very slow growth, and so it's very interesting. We don't know exactly why. Normally it goes very quick and pretty fast, and in my case, it's not like that.

Jellis Vaes
What do you mean with quick and fast? Yeah, what do you mean with quick and fast?

Like, normally, pancreatic cancer goes, like, very quick. It spreads, it proliferates very quickly, and then you're just gone.

Jellis Vaes
Right.

And there is very little chemotherapy that works or just in some cases. And so the options are not the biggest. So surgery, as long as it's localized and possible to have surgery, is really good. And so in my case, this was always possible. And so I had many surgeries and it's just like, keeping it at bay.

Jellis Vaes
And the surgery, what did they do? Do they also burn it away?

Because I also heard that I had different ablation. I think I had three or four surgeries where we had ablation and I had like, four or five big ones where I got opened up all the stuff. And I can slowly feel that with my breathing, with my whole scar tissue, that it affects me when I do sports, in which way I feel like I'm shorter in breathing. And it's, of course, under the skin, everything is very I mean, last time it took them like 3 hours just to get away all the scar tissue until they could start.

Jellis Vaes
Wow.

So it took them 3 hours to make to deliberate the liver from all the scar tissue and then they could start with the surgery. I don't want to know how it looks inside. So I'm happy that they still manage to do that this way. Yes. I feel a change of my body, definitely. Yeah.

Jellis Vaes
Well, these surgeries do take a toll on your body. Right. Especially like you, if you had to do many of them, it's not like you just, you know that nothing happened. Like, you're just completely, like, new again.

No.

Jellis Vaes
There's a cost to everything. Right?

Yes. But on the other side, it's good that we can have such kind of interventions, of course, that get access to this kind of technology. And so yeah, without it, I will not be alive.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah, same. Right. So the last surgery was last year for you.

Yeah.

Jellis Vaes
So some of the questions that I actually have for you, Martin, or the questions that I have, in a way, for both of us, are questions for listeners that, in a way, they're sort of designed in a way that everyone can use, not just people with a chronic illness or chronic disease. Because, in a way, what you and me have experienced and go through, in a way, everyone does. Right. Like, everyone questions life and death. Everyone goes through tough times and deals with painful situations. It's just that you for example, it's like more amplified if you have a chronic disease, right? So therefore, for people listening, you can use the lessons for your personal situation also. And the first question actually that I want to dig into is so when I shared a bit about my story since my cardiac arrest, what I've really been shown, I had this insight in a way, when I lost my dad when I was very young. But the mortality of my own life has been really shown to me now since in the last two years, I knew that it could happen to other people and in a way that it could happen to me as well, but now it happened to me.

Jellis Vaes
So just knowing, like, yes, this really happens to people. And what I've been, in a way, a little bit struggling with and where I'm really curious about just to learn about from you or just to hear your thoughts on is you hear often people saying, like, how you got to live in the now, you got to live in the moment. And that's true for everyone, right, but at the same time, you also want to work on the future and yeah, how do you balance this out? Have you learned a way to balance out living in an hour and working towards the future on projects, on the Mindset Academy, on My Survival Story or other things? How do you do this?

It's a very interesting question and I can feel that it comes from you, because you have been in the same conflict and as long as you have not. I mean, you said you understood that you have to die one day, but I think you underfelt. You felt that you're going to die one day. It's feeling, a knowledge in feeling, which is not the same as knowing. And I think that's what differentiates people who had to go through something like you and me from people who are reading a book, from, let's say, you, or from me. Once you feel it, once you nearly hit the wall, you have another kind of epiphany on an emotional level. And then it's true. You come in this conflict, and it's something that I had to learn and still learning with since now, nearly ten years. Because of course, in the beginning I was like, okay, let's take all my savings and let's do this project and let's go once around the world. I don't know if I'm going to survive six months. Let's do it. I literally was taking out all my retirement plan and saying, like, I'm going to do this, I'm going to make a company or a foundation and put it in there.

And then you come home and you're broke and you're still alive, and then you're like, okay, maybe it's like, what should I do now? And so I would answer your question like this. I don't have a long term tactical plan, like saying, you know, this is the milestones I can achieve, but I have big dreams and big visions. So if I compare it to sailing, which helps me a lot to put these kind of thoughts into a picture, is I envision an island or a dream destination where I want to go with my boat. And so I see that very clearly. This is my long term visualization, but I know that I'm on the boat, and I only can live and act and interact with life on the boat. And so in the end, it actually doesn't matter if I reach the island or if I just wait to this island, because I need the island as a navigational compass. So I know, okay, in which direction should I sail? But I know that anytime there can be a thunder or whatever, and then the journey is over. And so it doesn't destroy my happiness or my acting on the boat.

That's how I approach my life, but also my business. I have a big vision for what I want to achieve, but I try to stay on the moment and on the boat by being on the journey.

Jellis Vaes
Yes, I would say that is also my approach to this.

How do you do it? How do you solve that problem?

Jellis Vaes
Well, to really be in love with the journey and not the destination, to say it very and that's actually what you kind of said too, right? And I really question each time, does this feel good? Even if it's a long term plan, it has to feel good. It does.

Does it?

Jellis Vaes
Yes. The projects that I work on, like The IPS Project, they're so meaningful to me. I have so much love for it. I enjoy working on it every day. And as long that that is true, it's worth proceeding, it's worth continuing to build this further.

I was asking because I think when you said as long as it is meaningful to you, then you keep on working on it. But that probably also includes that you're going to do things that you don't like and things that feel like and I think that helps me more to navigate. I try to navigate according to meaning and not according to pleasure. Because sometimes when you say it has to feel good, I feel like this is just if it just has to feel good, I would watch the whole day Netflix and eat pizza. That's not bringing me to my island. I like what you said. As long as there is meaning, then you are able to keep going.

Jellis Vaes
Exactly. It's not about pleasure. It's truly meaning. That's honestly just the words. And that's really like what Victor Franklin with men search for meaning. But it's so true. And. Especially if you go through something horrible. Meaning is truly the thing that will drive you through the darkness. And yeah, things have to feel meaningful to me for me to continue doing it. And I can be long term. That's fine.

Totally. And I think meaning is very interesting because once you select what is meaningful to you, this is kind of a fast forward process, and then you can step back and ask yourself, okay, what kind of person do I have to become in order to achieve this meaningful goal? And what kind of character, what kind of actions, what kind of ethics or habits or values do I have to incorporate in order to achieve that meaningful goal? Rather than saying, I want to become a better human, I think that's much harder. Just like, okay, I have to be a good person. Yeah, but why? And what does that mean? But if you know why, then I think it's easier. At least for me, it is easier somehow.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah, I agree. And also I would say if people want to create their own company or want to be self employed, I personally always am like, yeah, what is meaningful to you? What do you care about? Because personally, that's the approach that I always have taken that will allow you to succeed more because you want to continue working on it, you want to take the hard things with it more easily than if you just focus on, oh, yeah, where can be the most money be found? And many people take that route as well and have a lot of success with that, too, which is, of course, fine, but that is very empty for me. And it's just really about yeah. And especially if you had these moments of the fragility of seeing that your life can just quickly pass by, it becomes so much more important to take the path of meaning.

Yeah, I agree. I totally agree. Because at the end of life, you will remember what kind of meaningful projects you did and not like, I don't know what kind of clothes you bought. I mean, don't get me wrong, I also like a beautiful shirt or what? It's nice. It feels nice. That's not the point. We should not be too harsh.

Jellis Vaes
You can appreciate quality.

Yes, totally. It's beautiful. Yeah. So, yeah, I agree. Meaning is very interesting.

Jellis Vaes
Do you know, because what you said, we both have had this insight in that life can end and we truly know it, but many people can read a book and are like, yeah, okay, life can end, and sort of grasp that. But have you I don't know, in any keynotes that you have given or any blog posts that you've wrote or just thoughts, have you ever thought about how you could truly make people realize the fragility of their own life? And I have no idea, by the way, about it.

I think the strongest stimulus that you can have is life by itself. Like you lose your father, you have an illness, whatever. So I think that's the strongest wake up experience. And I don't think that you can replicate that with a keynote or with a video or with a post. But I believe if I manage to transmit in a human in authentic way what I went through in a way that makes people emotional, I think it has to go through the emotional channel I always see in my audience when I see the first wet eyes, then I'm like, okay, now I'm on something. And most often it's also when I get a bit emotional. And that's a spot where as long as you as a speaker are confident and not like too much self confident, but calm to go into this emotional space, the audience will come with you. If you become insecure there, then it's going to be uncomfortable for the audience. But if you are like, hey, I'm now emotional and it's really okay, so let's keep on walking, they will come with you. And then I think there happens stuff like clicks and ticks and people connected to their own story.

And I don't know what happens in this moment, but I think my challenge or task as somebody trying is to take the people by the hand and say, okay, let's go into the cave now, let's see what we can find. And normalizing or not normalizing, but destigmatizing when it becomes emotional, I think that's something that is very important, that, okay, it's getting emotional, so let's keep on walking. It's emotions. Yes, it's life. It's like being human. So let's see what does it want to tell us and be open to it and not judgmental. But it takes some practice. Yeah, many years, probably, you know, from your own story yourself.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah. And for people listening, you are a great public speaker, actually like your TEDx Talk. I will also put it in the show notes for everyone. I think it's been a while since you dumbed that one. Right? But I think it's when the first time that I watched it, it definitely did something for me. It definitely made me feel many things.

It's interesting. And I still get commands on this talk. It seems like people still watching it. And then every year I try to write a command because people ask like, what happened to this guy? And like, I don't know, I'm still alive, right? Yes. I mean, another thing that just comes to my mind, asking yourself, how can we replicate such an event or experience or make people realize it not just on a cognitive level or more on emotional level? I'm now working with some friends here on a project where we want to do a mindset show, but like a 360 mapping show. Not just like that. I'm on stage and give a PowerPoint presentation, but they do a lot of light mapping and make interactive animations on the walls of buildings and rooms. And we try to do something that is more immersive, and let's see if we can I'm always curious and how we can push the border of, like, okay, what happens if you put people in such a room and we let them experience something? Can we trigger even more, like, in a safe way? Of course, you don't want it gets traumatic, but it's interesting to play around with it.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah, that sounds cool. Actually. It reminds me a bit of the screen X in the cinemas that you can go and watch. It's like almost a very immersive view sometimes that you get.

Yes, it's interesting. I like it a lot. Yeah.

Jellis Vaes
You wrote an Instagram post. Well, you wrote many, but you wrote one, which was from your keynotes you gave. And there was something very profoundly that you wrote in it that I want to share with everyone because I think everyone should hear it. If you don't invest in your wellness, you will have to invest in your illness. I've shared that with many people, actually, close friends, people that I care about. And for everyone, when I shared that, something clicked. Something was like, yes, this is very true. And it did the same for me, actually, as well. Could you expand a bit more on that sentence? Like, when did it came to you or something?

I think the concept came to me many years ago when actually when I trained for my first triathlon after my chemo. And I remember very well, I was in Italy and we were sailing. It was the first time I went sailing, but we were on land and I went for a run, and I think it was my first five k or so, and I felt so alive that I had tears in my eyes, like, whoa, I can run again.

Jellis Vaes
Wow.

And so the concept of, like, okay, your health, your wellness, your health is so precious. It becomes so more aware once it is at risk. And the problem with it is, once you have it back, you forget about it once you are healthy. You're like I mean, me including like now, it was Christmas and you eat too much sweets and then you drink a little bit of alcohol or a bit too much, and it's like it's enjoying and everything, and you forget about what you're doing to your body. And I also write those posts to remind myself because I'm also human, I'm also like somebody who has like, okay, I have to go out again. And I know if I do it, it makes me feel good, and it is doing good. Something for my body. But the brain is funny. The brain just goes quickly on the instant gratification, and it's a matter of if you can install in your life a system and habits that makes it easier for your brain to not like you have to trick your brain into it. I think if you just listen all the time to your brain, you're going to live a very unhealthy lifestyle.

And investing in your wellness is kind of an investment in the future. And that's why it's so hard for the brain to do, because the brain wants just now, Netflix and chocolate cake. It's just a reminder also for myself, like, hey, wait here. We're coming back to the long term vision. When I see my island of the boat where I want to go, I want to survive, I want to have a healthy body. And so I try to invest more in my wellness than in my illness.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah, that's it's sometimes... Besides, of course, that cigarettes are very addictive, but people struggle with it a lot, right, to stop with it because they don't really see like, oh, well, what does it matter? I'm still fine right now.

And, you know, cigarettes are interesting because sorry, cigarettes in our society, they are very clearly tagged as like, okay, that's not good. And if you smoke yourself, you sometimes feel bad or it's a very clear categorization. And when you stop smoking, whole society is like, oh, wow, great, congratulations to you. Now, when it comes to alcohol, it's very different.

Jellis Vaes
That's true.

Alcohol is like it's very interesting because I don't drink so much alcohol anymore. Like, for many time, I don't drink at all. But I love a good beer. I love craft men's beer. I love champagne. I'm not like a monk. But many often I'm on events, I'm speaking, and after that, there is like, reception, whatever, I don't drink. And then it's interesting what happens. Like, people look at you and like and say, no, I don't drink. And then the first direction, okay, what is wrong with him? Yes, when you stop smoking, everybody's like, Great. You are a great well achieved. And if you stop drinking, people think you have a problem with drinking, but it's the contrary. You don't have a problem, so you don't have to drink. And it's very interesting when I talk with my doctors, like, I'm not an advocate for not drinking alcohol. It's just I pick up the topic because I think it's an interesting example of how context is shaping your behavior. What I said before would make it easy for your brain that, of course, if a society has one kind of belief system out anything that can be alcohol or anything else, it's much harder for you as an individual to really clearly ask yourself, wait, is this now an investment in my illness or into my wellness?

Because you're like, getting the pressure from outside, and it just shows how quickly we are influenced.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah, you're right. With the alcohol part, it's super interesting. With cigarettes, it's definitely very clearly shown, like, yeah, you can get cancer from it, and the horrifying things that will or can happen, which are all true. So it's really good that's been shown, but with alcohol, it's not shown at all. Like the horrific things that can happen also with alcohol. And I actually did here on the podcast, an episode about alcohol with This Naked Mind. It's a book, and it's a very famous book, actually, for people to stop drinking. And I talked with Scott Pinyard, who is one of the coaches there. And I might still drink sometimes a beer, but I have almost completely stopped drinking because I truly tried looking into how bad it is, actually, and it is honestly really it's not good. It's really bad if you even drink one beer and you would track your sleep, your sleep is terrible. It's just terrible. And it's with wine or anything, right? Alcohol just it's terrible.

And I observed that I'm not 20 anymore, you know, I'm 42, so I see like, when, when I drink, I sleep very bad. And when I don't drink alcohol for one or two weeks, oh my God, I feel so much fresher and I can work and train and think clearly and it's a big change. So for me, it's really a trial and error. Again, the design thinking approach to your life, like prototyping, and then just see what happens when you, when you change a factor. And for me, it was just obvious that I feel much better without it.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah, I actually also wanted to ask along when I said that sentence or that quote that you wrote, what would be good investments that listeners could take into their wellness? And I know there are the very obvious ones, like what we said, like, oh, stop smoking and alcohol and sport more. But are there maybe some other ones that are maybe less, I don't know, obvious, or ones that you have realized that are really important things that you've invested in, that you could share?

I think people... You're right. I think people, they jump on the obvious one. They think they have to become a runner or something like this. And I don't believe that. I think investing in your wellness starts with setting clear borders at work. Don't work until eight, nine o'clock at night. I mean, I completely changed the way I worked since my illness because I know stress is number one enemy for my immune system. And if I'm stressed, I'm risking my life, honestly, because if my immune system is not good, then the cancer can spread everywhere. So I have a very clear why, a very clear understanding why I don't want to have stress. It's not because I'm lazy or because I'm not ambitious. I'm very ambitious, but I want to achieve that in a non stressful way. And so asking yourself, okay, how can I reduce stress, I think is the first step. Like, how can I go to bed earlier? But this is all the technical stuff. I think what is more interesting is to ask yourself, why do you want to invest in your wellness? Is it for your kids? Is it for your future?

Is it for your, I don't know, the big goal that you have? And I think that should be the driving force for the lifestyle change. And then it's about practical stuff. Like I'm a big fan of make it easy. Make it easy and small for the start. Ask yourself if you hate running. Don't go for a run. Go dancing. Be creative, what you can do. Go walking. If you like podcasts, why don't take a podcast and walk home from work? I mean, if you're listening in the US, maybe that's not possible. But in Europe the infrastructure is different, people work closer. Or it's not like the people who get very old, like in the blue zones, you know, these are not ultramariton runners, you know, they actually drink alcohol like in Sardinia, you know, the old people. But they walk a lot. They walk a lot and they have no stress and they drink one glass of wine a day and that's good. So I think it's not about when it comes to this wellness and health thing that we have to be like this, let's say like instagram influencers in a fitness world. It's more about common sense.

Like okay, our body is made for walking and for standing and for not. I mean, it's not made for hanging 8 hours in an email program. No, definitely not.

Jellis Vaes
We do that a lot though.

Yes, we do it a lot. Too much, I think.

Jellis Vaes
Oh yeah, it's like a modern day problem, actually. A very big one, actually. Yeah, I actually would also like to add two things and one you were actually talking about and yeah, sporting super important. But like you said, a lot of people think about like oh yeah, running. Yeah, but I don't like running. It's fine, don't do it. But I climb a lot and for me it's not even a sport. It's fun, but it is a sport. And then you said like dancing, right. Find something that is just fun. And as a byproduct, you will also get in shape and you will move, but something that is fun and check through the options. There's way more sports actually than you probably think of right now that you could do.

And maybe you can do it with a friend or be creative in the end. It's about spending time outside and moving your body in some kind of way.

Jellis Vaes
Yes.

And if you can incorporate that in one way or the other, I mean, that's fantastic. Yeah, I like that with what you say about climbing, that it's not a sport, it's fun. It's probably meditation for you or something taking off your mind.

Jellis Vaes
It's cool sports. And actually the other thing that I've realized in these last two years and I don't know how when I share it to people, that they will immediately do it because I also think it's more a thing that you will do when something has happened, but I still like to share it. I've truly seen the importance of having a good health circle of medical professionals. And, I mean, like, I, for example, have two cardiologists. I actually added another one who has more of another approach on lifestyle than the one that I see in the hospital, who is more approaching, like, medication and surgeries, which are both really good insights. And then I also added a doctor who works really on your blood work and really does a deep dive into that and gives supplements based on your needs on that. And actually this year, I want to add like, a psychologist to it to go every three months, for example, to a psychologist who specialized in dealing people with a chronic disease. And I really have seen the importance of just not that I need to use them all the time, but just knowing that I can make an appointment that I have that circle of medical professionals that I can go to is really helpful for me right now when I deal with this.

But I think for many people, many people don't do test their blood work or work with a doctor every six months, for example, that really focuses on giving correct supplements. That's the quote that you said that's an investment in your wellness already, so you don't have to invest in your illness. Yes, and I truly saw the importance actually this year of really have a good circle of medical professionals.

And it's interesting what you say when you compare that with, let's say, a tennis player. If you want to play in the top league, you have a big team and you have for everything, you have, like, a specialist. And if you say, look, I have a huge challenge medically. So does it make sense that I just have my house doctor that is in my village and does cover everything? Or wouldn't it be better to talk to some specialists that have only that special case that I am struggling with and they have so much more experience? So I like that approach that you're following. Totally, yeah.

Jellis Vaes
Well, since my cardiac arrest, I had to deal actually a lot with hearing bad news. And I'm pretty sure that's something that you're quite familiar with. Each time that I go to the hospital, it's like, oh, yeah, this medication doesn't work, so we got to try this one. I've been on like, five different medications from a beta blocker to an Ace inhibitor to a calcium channel blocker to something very different that I'm on right now from the surgery that doesn't work, from other things that they noticed. Like, this might be another cardiac arrest almost. Yeah, I had to deal a lot with hearing bad news, and that can be quite upsetting when I return from the hospital, it's not like I am not influenced by hearing that news. Everyone has been telling me, though, to keep hope. And it's not like I don't do that. I keep hope. As long as there are options, there's hope, but still, it's not easy to deal with this. How have you learned to deal with hearing bad news? Is there an approach to this? And as I said in the beginning, everyone will hear bad news in their life at some points.

What approach do you use, if any?

Okay, so the first thing I would say, like, hearing bad news is bad. I would not recommend to try, let's say, a positive psychology approach of like, oh, yeah, I can see now the positive in it. And sometimes you get bad news, and it's just like I mean, I don't know what word I can use on this podcast, but it's just bad, and that's okay. It means that you care about living. And I think it's okay to be upset and it's okay to be sad, and it's okay. That's what I learned, that I have to live through all these emotions, and maybe I don't have to do that publicly, but I want to live through them in my timeline that I need. And then once I have processed, I can calm down and then see, okay, what can we do and what is the plan? But I allow myself to let the bad news be bad. And in the same way that when I have a good news, I open a bottle of champagne and like yeah, it would not be honest if I will not be affected, but what I...

Jellis Vaes
Sorry to interrupt, but thank you for saying that, because that's something that I feel people just don't understand. Often, when they don't have to deal with something, like serious or even with a small thing, people try to be too positive. And it's actually very lonely when people do that for the person trying to say something. Right. Because you're not connecting, you're not trying to listen to what they're saying.

If you are somebody listening and you're not directly affected, there is at the beginning of a bad news, it's just a period where you don't have to give advice. Just ask the other person how do you feel, then listen what they say and then say, yeah, I can imagine that this feels really shit. Like, don't try to jump directly into solutions because maybe the other person is not there yet. So I think we should really allow ourselves to go through this emotional timeline, because emotions unfold in a timeline, and if you interrupt it, then you're just going to cover it under the surface, but it still somewhere needs to be processed. So that's the first thing I would say. The second thing that I changed my approach, because you mentioned before you try to keep hope, but it's really hard. It can be hard. I know, yes. Because there is a problem with hope. Hope is conditional. You hope that something happens. And if that doesn't happen, you get disappointed, and that always puts you in a dependency of the outcome.

Jellis Vaes
Interesting.

So what I did is I don't say it's easy, but I try to replace hope with trust. So rather than hoping, I want to learn to trust, to trust that it will be fine, but also to trust that I will be fine no matter what, then I decouple myself from the outside circumstances because I don't have to hope that XYZ happens. I can say, okay, I learn to trust that no matter what, I can go with it. And even if it means that I have to take my head and leave Earth and die, I can trust that this process is something that will be my lost adventure and I will be able to do, in my experience. And I mean, you have to play around with it yourself, but in my experience, it's very powerful and deliberating because I'm not dependent anymore on outside circumstances. Of course, I still hope when I walk into the office that the doctor gives me good news, but then when the bad news comes, I can say, okay, let's just trust that we're going to have it like, we're going to get that.

Jellis Vaes
Is it a way of surrendering? To the moment?

Yes. No, I would say it's the way of acceptance. And acceptance is not surrender. That's also a lot what people get wrong. Like, if you accept something, it's actually not surrendering, it's the contrary. Accepting is looking into what is into the face and say, okay, I accept it. It's an empowering action. And surrender is actually not accepting. Surrender is getting like, okay, I fight and not or giving up or I walk away. And accepting is not walking away. So for me personally, it's a very empowering action. All right.

Jellis Vaes
Interesting.

I don't know how you handle it or how you do it.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah. At the moment, because well, the cardiac arrest could happen anytime again, that's why I have an ICD in me to give me a shock if it would happen. But that doesn't meant...

But for somebody who doesn't have... t I don't know, you have like, a sensor and then you have a trigger and then you ... ?

Jellis Vaes
You know a defibrillator? Like the thing that they give like a shock with.

Yes. Like from the movies.

Jellis Vaes
Yes. Well, I have that internally in me.

Wow.

Jellis Vaes
So it's a little device...

You are a cyborg.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah. When I saw the folder that they gave me, it was really like a cyborg, actually, that they were showing me. And that's what I am because I've really like well, I don't know if that yeah, but yeah, it's it's weird to see it every day still, but it's a part of me now, but it's connected with my heart, with wires. And if it will notice something like happening that it's not correct, it would give me a shock to reset my heart.

You don't have to do anything.

Jellis Vaes
No, I don't know. No, because with a cardiac arrest, you can do anything.

Yeah.

Jellis Vaes
If it happens, then again, you're just unconscious. So it has to do something. It gives me shock. That's amazing.

That's pretty crazy what technology there is. Like what?

Jellis Vaes
Honestly, I'm kind of terrified if it would ever happen because I've heard people describe how it is and it's like a horse kicking you in the chest, apparently. But at the same time, I can sleep at night quite peacefully knowing that if something might happen, I could handle it.

It's your parachute. It is my parachute. I can imagine you have a mixed relationship to it, but on the other side, there are probably hundred thousands of people out there who would love to have this device.

Jellis Vaes
That's true, yes. I'm more grateful for it than anything else, actually. I'm more grateful to it than scared of it, you could say. Yeah, but I truly feel like a cyborg, actually. And that's a cool side in a way, because I am curious because now I have it. I'm curious because the battery lasts for like ten to 15 years and then have to replace it. I'm curious in ten years or 15 years, how much smaller it will be, how much difference just the technology. I'm very curious in that now.

Yeah, it will be very different. Probably they will going to replace it already before because.

Jellis Vaes
Maybe. Wow, I totally forgot where I was actually going with all this. But I would say that I do try to focus actually on the options at hand now. The next surgery is coming in a few months and I just put all my attention on that and I don't stress about anything else yet. About any what ifs what if it doesn't work? This, that I just eliminate those thoughts in a way and I put all my attention on like, okay, this is where we're going to and this is what we're doing, and let's focus on that. And that kind of gives me, in a way, hope, you could say. Because as long as there are options, there's things that you can do. And that does feel hopeful in a way, though.

Yeah

Jellis Vaes
That's how I deal with it. Oh yeah. I was saying all this because the cardiac arrest could happen again. Well, anyway, that's my approach at the moment.

Yeah. To focus on this and on the moment.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah, focus on one thing. Try to keep it simple. Like you actually said, keep it simple, focus on one thing.

Yeah, that's always a good idea.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah. It's otherwise too complex with any problems, right. Big or small, focus on one thing at a time.

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Jellis Vaes
Martin, I just have a few last questions left for you. So we talked about hearing bad news and dealing with that often we're actually very good at when something bad happens or just in the day. It's like the negativity bias, right? Like 100 things go right and one thing happens and our whole day has been ruined because of that. We're very good, actually, at keeping our attention on that and not seeing the good moments that have happened and to recognize them a bit more. And they deserve a lot more attention in the end, right, than the bad ones sometimes. How do you celebrate? And you already mentioned that you opened a bottle of champagne, but how do you celebrate when you hear good news? And also, is there any tips maybe that you could give to people listening on how to celebrate or if they're bad at celebrating?

You mean like if they're bad, like how they can better celebrate?

Jellis Vaes
Yeah. Or if they just forget about it or something when something good actually happens. And it's maybe more obvious when something really big has happened, like a surgery that was successful, but also people achieve big things or goals just which definitely deserve celebration, right?

Yeah. I think in the bigger picture, what I do, I have a predictable situation because I have control scans and then I get results. And so the moment of getting good or bad news regarding to health is very clear. It's the day of the results. And I always take the day off. Like, no matter what the results are, they are off. And also, if they are good, I will not go back to work. I just do whatever I feel like, and that's really good. So I think that you can also apply for other things at work or in your relationship, like if there's something happens, like, hey, let's reserve a day or an afternoon and do something special and celebrate that. And I think it's a way of being conscious about allowing ourselves also to say, hey, that was now really good, or I did something good. It's often we are very judgmental with when we mess things up, but we are not so good in giving compliments. I don't know how it's in Belgium, but in Switzerland it's like, don't give yourself compliments. And I think that's not good. I often say in my workshops, if you do something well, what you can do and I mean, people watching, they can see it, but if you're listening, what you can do is you can put your arm out in front of you.

Try it also with me.

Jellis Vaes
All right.

Yes. And then you're going to bend it like 90 degrees like this, and then you're going to clap your I do that a lot. And when I show that to people, the most of them start laughing. And of course that's what you want because you want to give your brain a boost of confirmation of dopamine, of like thumbs up. That was good. More of that. This is the positive feedback loop that you want to incorporate in your daily life. And I do that a lot. I do something in the house that I was avoiding for a long time and then finally, I don't know, clean it up or, I don't know, say, hey, well done, Martin, and I give myself the compliment. And I think that's a really funny little trick that you can play around with. Yes.

Jellis Vaes
Because often we wait for other people to compliment ourselves while we already know, like, oh, this was actually quite challenging and I did it, or I went through this tough time. Don't wait. Yeah, I like it. Yeah. Something that I do and this year I'm doing it again is my cardiac arrest happened on the 19 February and I'm doing sort of like a rebirth birthday or something and I'm throwing every well, last year I did it and this well month, or in February we're doing it too. We're doing a costume party here in the apartments. And it's sort of like turning dramatic thing into a very fun thing because I was so close to never seeing my friends ever again. And it's not like I have to mention this, like, oh, this is why I'm doing this party. But it's just for myself to be again, like, this is nice. I almost lost this.

Yes. I love it. That's really cool.

Jellis Vaes
And I guess people can do something in another way, right? When you do something sacred day, like you said, off, go to a spa, do some order food that you love, do something that you like because you do deserve it.

Yes. And maybe it's just taking an afternoon off and not having a plan and just, I don't know, going to the city and see where you end up and maybe it's in a coffee shop or I don't know. I think it's about the conscious decision of allowing yourself to celebrate in one way or the other that is important.

Jellis Vaes
I've seen in 2022 a lot of photos and videos from you on social media on a sailing boat, and you already mentioned sailing. Let's talk about it for just a little bit more. When did you actually get started with sailing?

This was directly after my first chemo, in 2013.

Jellis Vaes
Okay. Like, ten years ago.

Yes. And I was never on a sailboat before, and I was just finished with chemo. I had, like, life. Let's go. And then a friend, my mom, her husband was a sailor, and she was like, hey, you should go with my husband sailing. I didn't know the guy before. And, yeah, we clicked on the first trip, and he became my sail mentor first, and we sailed a lot around, and then he had a boat back then in the Mediterranean, and then later we crossed Atlantic together. Wow. Other people, like, we were six, so that was the biggest thing we did then. And then now he bought the boat in Canada some years back and during COVID and this time and I had a tricky time personally, like, okay, what should I do? And I was like, let's get out here. Let's become a pirate. I just want to go sailing.

Jellis Vaes
That's the best plan always, right?

Yes, exactly. And so I talked a lot with Felix about, okay, look, I'm thinking about a sailboat..

Jellis Vaes
I am thinking about becoming a pirate.

Yeah, exactly. How do I become a pirate? And he was, like, consulting me on what should I look out if I buy a boat, and so on. And then one day he just called me and said, hey, do you want to become partner with my boat? And I was like, yeah. Hell, yes. It was amazing because he has so much experience, and I also, in this way, could easier get into a boat ownership, which is not also financially an easy thing to do and learn a lot what it means to have a boat. The boat was back then in Vancouver, and then we shifted cruise, he started, and then I took over, and we sailed the boat from Vancouver all the way to Florida.

Jellis Vaes
How many days did that took?

That took, like, half a year or so. I mean, I was on the boat no, he was on the boat three months or so, and then I was on the boat five months.

Jellis Vaes
Wow.

And then he was on the boat again one month. And then in Florida, we transported it over to Europe. So now it's in Italy. So it's back home in the Met. Yes. I mean, not home. It's a Canadian brand, so it's actually really an expat.

Jellis Vaes
How cool is this actually.

That's one of the best adventures of my life, I have to say. That's so cool.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah. I recently it was not a sailing boat, but I went to Malta in Europe, but next to it, you have Gozo, like, a tiny island of Malta. And I rented a boat, but, like, one that you could easily drive yourself without, like, a license or something, right.

Yeah.

Jellis Vaes
And holy shit, I had so much fun. It was amazing. Just driving to different beaches, laying out your anchor, swimming, going to another one. It was good.

And, you know, when you have a sailboat, it's like a caravan. You have your whole house with you. You have your kitchen, you have your sleeping room. You have, like, everything. You just drop anchor and say, do you want to sleep here tonight? Okay, let's do it. It's really freedom. Yeah.

Jellis Vaes
This makes me want to try it at some point, too. When I see these videos or posts, it always seems to me like you experience a lot of joy, but that you also learned a lot of lessons and gained a lot of insights and well, also a lot of memories. Right. On those sailing trips, are there any lessons about life or deep insights that you've learned, like, from a recent sailing trip that you could share?

I mean, many the last sailing trip really changed me as a person, as a man, really. So it's hard to pick one, I think, in a nutshell. And just like, one of the most profound things that I learned is if there is something in life that you want to do, then dare to do it. Like, dare do write it down on paper, then make your homework. I watched endless videos on YouTube and learn everything, connect with people. And like me, I found a mentor. And then find a way and just go for it. Don't wait and learn while I mean, you're never going to be ready. You can always prepare more. And at one point, I remember very well in Costa Rica when Felix flew home, and for the first time, I mean, I have to add, I never sailed alone before that trip. And I took...

Jellis Vaes
How exciting.

...In Costa Rica. And then I was sailing it from Costa Rica, first with some friends, but then all by myself to Panama.

Jellis Vaes
All alone?

All alone, just from I mean, like, in Costa Rica had friends, and then I went alone from Costa Rica all the way to Panama City. Then I had another friend helping me to sail it to Cuba. But the moment Felix left and I was alone, I was like, all right. And so that's what I mean at one point, you just have to do it. You have to go just go and learn. Yeah. Don't make stupid things. Be aware of like, I mean, do your homework. That's what I mean. But then go, like, you will learn so much. So yeah, that would be a big one. Yeah.

Jellis Vaes
Great lesson. That's actually, I would say my approach to many things in life, too.

Yeah. You can approach it for climbing, but also for business, for any la. Yeah, you have to do it. You have to go and try it out.

Jellis Vaes
Of course, like you said, with a mountain, for example, prepare right. See where you have to go. See how don't just do it, but you're never going to be completely ready. That's true as well.

And that's the interesting thing. If you would be completely ready, it would not be interesting anymore.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah.

Then pick a mountain that was really huge for you, like, say, ten years ago, and that you climbed now three, four times. It doesn't have the same appeal anymore. I mean, it's still a beautiful journey, but that's the cool stuff, that you're not ready. That's actually cool.

Jellis Vaes
Well, now it's been a while, or well, I hope I can do it soon again, but I actually climbed quite a lot of mountains when I was some years ago, and my first kind of big mountain was the Mont Blanc in France. And I was terrified. I was like, what am I doing? But then I had an incredible time and I really was like, yeah, I want to do this more. And then I actually set it as the end goal in my head. The Matterhorn in Switzerland.

It's a tricky one.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah. And two years ago, I actually climbed it and I never could have believed that when I was climbing first the mobile and terrified of just that mountain that I would have ever been able to achieve something like that. But I had to go, I had to prepare, I had to build it up slowly. Right. But I just went for it in a way.

Cool. Yes. That sounds really exciting. I've never been into climbing like, that crazy stuff, but I can imagine it must be mind blowing to stand on top of Materhorn. Yeah.

Jellis Vaes
I'm not saying that I will do this forever right. My whole life. But I learned a lot, in a way, from mountains and definitely just the lesson. Like, I have this heart disease yes. But that doesn't mean that I should be limited in how I should live life. Mountains kind of showed me, like, I could do more than what they would say right. Because of my disease. And that felt that's super empowering in a way.

Yes. It's probably also motivation for you to see where you can go. That's wonderful.

Jellis Vaes
Would you recommend everyone to try sailing at some point?

I don't think so. No. I think you have to figure out for yourself. First of all, humans are not made for sailing, so it's like normal that you get seasick and all this stuff. And if you hate water, don't go sailing. For me personally, it's an amazing school of life, because you really have to learn. You learn that you are not in charge for the lost the lost decision, or is nature and it's the sea.

Jellis Vaes
Yes.

And that's a very humble experience. Like in the mountains, it's the same. We live in a society in cities. We have this illusion that we humans always are in charge. And then you have an illness and then you realize, wait but why are we not in charge? Why can we not solve it? When you're in the mountains, when you're on the sea, it's all the time like that. You know that you are not in charge here. I mean, you have to be in charge of your boat or your mountain gear, but the rest is not up to you. And that's a very humble experience, I think.

Jellis Vaes
I agree.

I can recommend to anybody to have it once in their life.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah, there's definitely a force bigger than yourself that you only experience there in such moments. But it sounds so cool that you have to be, in a way, almost as like, you have to operate the whole boat. You have to be like one with the boat in a way. But that appeals a lot to me, actually, in wanting to try sailing. Maybe at some point you should.

I mean, I can imagine that you like it and you're close to the sea in Belgium now. Yeah.

Jellis Vaes
I only fear that I might get very seasick, but also that after a while, you get better at you will.

It's like you are not made for sailing. And there are tricks, like looking at the horizon, picking up the steering wheel helps a lot, and I think it has a lot to do with attitude if you get seasick or not.

Jellis Vaes
That's true. All right, I have two last questions for you, if that's okay.

Yeah, sure.

Jellis Vaes
Who do you look up to, Martin? Are there people who have inspired you in life that helped you to deal with this crazy journey that you have gone through and that you are still going through? Yeah, I'm curious to just know the people that you look up to, actually.

Martin Inderbitzin
Yeah, of course. I mean, I looked up to many other people walking the path before me where I learned from cancer patients or survivors and learning from them. But then I like the word role models. I found role models in many different areas of life, like, you mentioned Victor Frankel. So he, for me, definitely is somebody that I studied a lot, and I really feel like, okay, wow, this is somebody who went through something and made out something of his life and was like, oh, that's very inspiring. Like podcasters. I love to listen to Rich Roll during sport. And he as with his story as an ex alcoholic. It's very inspiring. I love people who challenge the status quo, like, let it be Opera, who was like, just as a black woman pushing through. So I have a lot of role models that I get inspired and I then study. I study what did they do and what can I learn from them? So that's, for me, a very powerful way of learning. Yes.

Jellis Vaes
And I would also say, actually, that a lot of people underestimate the power of having role models in your life, because there's people before you that have gone through this life, too, that actually know the answers. You don't have to figure it all out, actually, and they're there for you to access, in a way, through books or podcasts.

Yes.

Jellis Vaes
I would actually like to just add my role models, and I think this is going to sound very corny. But I actually would say that you are a really big role model for me.

That's very kind. I feel humble now. Yeah.

Jellis Vaes
So I'm always really grateful to talk to you, just but I've taught a lot of you well, that's not maybe weird, but just about your lessons, right. While having gone through this the last two years. And it's been really helpful to know that there's someone out there like you who has had this crazy roller coaster and is doing all these incredible things still alive. And that's inspiring. Very inspiring.

Thank you. I think I can relate. When you see other stories, also hearing your story, it's encouraging for me, like saying, hey, anybody who is going through hardship and somehow found a way to make something out of it, I think you can take something out. So yeah, thanks for that, too.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah. And another person that I actually interviewed also, I think, last month, Alex Lewis, and he's a quadruple amputee. He lost all its limbs because of a bacteria that just was killing him. It also ate his whole lips. Yeah. It's pretty crazy, actually, what he went through, but it's just insane, the suffering that people go through, and yet they still can handle it. Yet they can still smile and laugh and live a meaningful life. It's crazy what humans can actually withstand. It's just insane.

That sounds like a very inspiring guy.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah. The last question. Is there any books, videos or podcast episodes that you can recommend just for everyone listening on the topics that we sort of talked about, you know, the topics of life and that that you have learned a lot from?

One book that just pops up. Now, spontaneous is When Things Fall Apart. It's from a monk. Her name is you have to look it up.

Jellis Vaes
Sure.

Yeah.

Jellis Vaes
I have it actually open here by Pema Chödrön or something.

Yeah, that's why I cannot remember the name.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah, that's a difficult name, actually.

Yes. So that book I was reading maybe two years ago, so I found it very inspiring. She also has a crazy story, and she meditated a lot, and so meditation and Buddhism, I think it's a huge source of inspiration for me. So yeah, that's something that I was reading recently, or looking.

Jellis Vaes
She was a monk?

Yeah. I think she still is. I don't know.

Jellis Vaes
Okay.

There are many, many resources out there that you can go through and books a book that I'm reading at the moment is called Personality Isn't Permanent by Benjamin Hardy. And he has a very interesting approach, saying that personality test is the most stupid thing or violent thing that you can do to yourself because you get in this fixed mindset that you are one type or the other. And actually that's not true. That science is showing that we change over time and we change over the situations we are thrown into. And that personality is actually a result of what kind of task life is giving you. Then you're shaping your personal according to that or from the context of society you live in. And I found that really interesting because it's about this whole self development issue, like who I want to be, how can I live that life? And it opens this door of like, hey, it's actually interesting to think about that we can reshape not only our life, but our persona, our personality. Yeah, you're not stuck. Yes. And I experienced that when I lived five years in Spain. I became a different person. I became a Spanish version of Martin. When I came back my Swiss friends were like, who is this guy? I was much louder...

Jellis Vaes
Talking Spanish the whole time.

Yes. So that is also a book that I'm enjoying a lot to listen now to. Yes.

Jellis Vaes
Okay.

And I mean, if you're asking about books, I'm happy to make some self promotion because I actually wrote the book.

Jellis Vaes
I totally did not know this, actually.

No, because it's not out yet. This is a test print.

Jellis Vaes
Dare to live

Dare to live. It's made for my friends and family, and it's going to be published this spring, probably in March. And so it's very un Swiss to do this. So I do a bit American, but that's a book you can read if you're interested to learn more about those topics and stuff.

Jellis Vaes
Well, congrats.

Yes, thanks. I'm really like I'm going to clap myself. I'm proud. It was a big, long process. It's a collection of small chapters. You have many small chapters, just like thoughts and mixing neuroscience or my personal approach. And yeah, I think I enjoyed reading, writing it, and now I put it out in the world and see what happens.

Jellis Vaes
Yes, very exciting.

Yes, it is. I'm really looking forward to it.

Jellis Vaes
How does it feel to hold it actually your hands?

Hey, it's interesting because the manuscript was in my computer, finished for many months, and then I was like, proofreading it and then I got a box with with the prints.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah.

It was such a different feeling to have the book in your hand. You know, it's still the same text, but it's in your hand. And you're like, oh, holy cow, I wrote the book.

Jellis Vaes
That must be so cool, actually.

Yeah, it's really cool.

Jellis Vaes
So Dare to Live. And you said June or March?

March.

Jellis Vaes
Okay, sorry.

March, April. And yes, I'm going to publish, self publish it. So you're going to find it on Amazon and everywhere where you can buy online stuff.

Jellis Vaes
You can or you can't?

No, you can.

Jellis Vaes
Okay, good.

Yes. That's the easiest way to distribute it at this point. Yes.

Jellis Vaes
Well, very exciting. I am definitely actually interested in ordering myself. And for everyone listening, I will link up the book in the show notes.

Great. Yes.

Jellis Vaes
Let me just add one book that I actually recently read that had a big impact on me, and maybe you've read it too, or heard of it When Breath Becomes Air. Have you heard of it?

Yes. From cancer person affected by cancer. From a doctor, no? In Stanford or so.

Jellis Vaes
Exactly. He was a neurosurgeon, a very well respected neurosurgeon who had lung cancer, and it was terminal. It's hard sometimes to describe what a book does to you because it was such an emotional roller coaster to read. I actually listened to it, but to just listen to that book but, man, some people yeah, good things happen to bad people, and that's just not fair. But he was also able to just draw meaning out of his work and still try to push forward in life by what he felt was his calling. And that was, in a way, very beautiful, but also very heartbreaking because of the life that he actually had. And that's gone now, but yeah, still.

Yeah. And it's beautiful written. I remember reading it and it made me cry and it was like, really? It's a good recommendation. Yeah. Maybe I should pick it up. Again, thanks for pointing that out.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah, so it's written by Paul Kalanithi and I will also link it up in the show notes. Martin, thank you for taking your time for doing this interview.

Well, thank you for having me. It was fun, like, always chatting with you and also hearing your story and your side and yes, it now seems like becomes a regular thing that we turn up here on the podcast, which is kind of fun.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah, so much happens, right. And each time there's been quite some years, actually, between it. So it's always interesting to just see the process and the progression and just the lessons.

Right.

Jellis Vaes
Or that you learned.

Yes.

Jellis Vaes
I do have one final end question that I've asked you, actually, in each one of those episodes, too. So don't try to think of what you said then.

I don't remember the question.

Jellis Vaes
All right.

I remember that you had this one final question, but I don't remember how it went.

Jellis Vaes
But that's interesting, actually. Yes, because time changes this final end question with many people and well, again, you can make it very short or you can make it as extended as you want. Oh, yeah, sorry. First of all, let me just ask for people listening, like you mentioned your book, but also, what is the best place for people to actually connect with you? Check your work, check the Mindset Academy, for example. Where can people best go to?

I think the most active I'm on Instagram, LinkedIn and YouTube.

Jellis Vaes
Yes.

And of course, you can just Google my name and then you find my website for the newsletter. So I'm sending out a newsletter regularly, just summarizing my thoughts and yeah, that's how you find me.

Jellis Vaes
All right. So also, for everyone listening, you can find that linked up in the show notes. So the final end question, Martin, from everything that you've seen, experienced, lived, and learned in your life, what is the one thing you know to be true?

Life is short, shorter than you think. Maybe it pops up because I talked about the book before, but, like, Dare to Live, go out and do it. Don't wait. Don't wait for the perfect moment. It's not dramatic. Life is short and you're going to die tomorrow. But it goes quick. It goes quick, and then ten years are over. And so just go. But go easy. But go and do it.

Jellis Vaes
Yeah, but it is a really good title for a book, and it's very true what you shared.

Now I have to figure out how to translate into German, because people here in Switzerland say, like, we need that in German. Like, how do you translate that?

Jellis Vaes
Oh, yeah. Translating books can be a challenge, right?

Yeah.

Jellis Vaes
Especially for titles.

Yeah, the title will be challenging.

Jellis Vaes
Well, Martin, thank you once again for being here on the show. It was a true pleasure.

Thank you so much. Yeah. For me too thank you.

Jellis Vaes
And that concludes this episode with Martin and me. I truly hope you found many insights and lessons from this episode. Again, if you want to learn even more from Dr. Eater Bitson, do check out episodes 11 and 26. They are both filled with so many more lessons, of course. Also check out the book Martin wrote, Dare to Live, which you can preorder online by the time this episode is released, you can find the two episodes and his book linked up in the show notes, where, of course, any resource mentioned in this episode can be found as well. Now, if you can't find the Show Notes there, you can always go directly to theipsproject.com/podcast and search for Martin. With that thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode, and I hope I get to welcome you again soon on another one. This is your host, Jellis Vaes, signing off.

The IPS Academy
Before you take off, if you already feel like you've gained many lessons and insights from this episode and you want to continue your journey of personal growth, be sure to take a look at The IPS Academy, where we offer in depth, quality and fun online courses from experts that have appeared here on the podcast. Learn from a two time world record holder how to master goal setting and confidence. Learn from a certified stress educator how to manage your stress and live a more balanced life. Learn from a therapist how to heal past wounds. And learn from a neuroscientist to master your mindset. These are but some of the course topics you can find at The IPS Academy. Each course we offer is made with fun animations and stunning illustrations. There are also a few lessons to try for free so you can get a taste of what the course is like. We have countless reviews from other students so you can see what others think. And last but not least, there is a 30 day money back guarantee if you end up not liking the course. If any of this sounds interesting to you, you can check out our courses by going to TheIPSProject.com/academy or by clicking on the link in the description of this episode.

Lessons about Life and Death from a Cancer and a Cardiac Arrest Survivor | Dr. Martin Inderbitzin and Jellis Vaes

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Lessons about Life and Death from a Cancer and a Cardiac Arrest Survivor | Dr. Martin Inderbitzin and Jellis Vaes

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Healing Yourself Through Cognitive Behavioral Therapy

Learn with a therapist using Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, an evidence-based psychotherapy, to heal yourself.